Circular Human Construct

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This topic contains 20 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  Aurora Carlson 3 years ago.

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  • #5419 Score: 2

    bernlern
    Participant
    3 votes
    @bernlern

    I’m stuck… If the body and the mind are human constructs, then the book ‘You are the Universe’ is as well. The body of the book is a human construct, and so is its mind (the content). So then, are consciousness and awareness human constructs? Ergo, they are not real? Goto ‘I’m stuck’ ad perpetuum!

    This post has received 2 votes up.
  • #5421 Score: 0

    Aurora Carlson
    Keymaster
    110 votes
    @aurorac

    Welcome Bernlern, thanks for bringing your catch 22 to the forum! 🙂
    Will be nice to hear what the authors think of your question. Until then, may I ask you: who or what is stuck? Or maybe, “where” is the stuckness? 🙂 Sorry if this sounds awkward, we’re often juggling words on this forum, to try to express such that is beyond words.

  • #5424 Score: 1

    bernlern
    Participant
    3 votes
    @bernlern

    Aurora, thank you for the comment and the question. Who is stuck? Me, my logic and my feeling. Something in YATU does not feel ‘right’ to me. I learnt to follow my heart, bringing my head along. Where is the stuckness? In this case both head and heart are confused. I gladly admit that going into silence (I am a certified Primordial Sound Meditation instructor in Belgium) resolves the stuckness, which comes with the wisdom which is beyond words. But then, what is the point of having words in a book (YATU), when what they want to convey is beyond words?

    This post has received 1 vote up.
    • #5425 Score: 1

      Aurora Carlson
      Keymaster
      110 votes
      @aurorac

      Dear Bernlern, it’s so nice that we can smile together, from the wisdom out. As a PSM instructor, you know the wisdom beyond words. I’ll continue to use words and call it “the presence beyond words”. That presence, when one has released and transcended the restless activity,that presence is … present (oh, the limitation of words!). It is alive. It is aware. It is not a construct, it is beyond constructs, holding all the constructs in itself, maybe “descending” into them and giving them “reality”.

      What I’m trying to say is that everything is a construct except that which IS beyond constructs. So even if the words “consciousness” and “awareness” are simply words/human constructs, the awareness you are whenever you go beyond constructs in meditation is not a construct.

      What is the point of writing a book about it all? Well… what is the point of any mental or physical activity? You tell me! 🙂

      This post has received 1 vote up.
  • #6208 Score: 0

    Deepak Chopra
    Moderator
    60 votes
    @deepakchopra

    Dear @bernlern , thank you for your question! I have answered in Readers Ask: Is Consciousness a Human Construct?

    Love,
    Deepak

  • #6215 Score: 1

    Sree
    Participant
    22 votes
    @sree

    Dear @bernlern, you ask a good (and tricky) question. I see Deepak has answered but I haven’t had a chance to listen/watch it yet (and won’t be able to for a while), so I’m going to offer my take on it here. I think what leads us into this “stuckness” trap is the binary sense in which we use the terms real & unreal. I’ve learnt (from Advaita Vedanta) instead to see reality in degrees. The classical example used to illustrate this is the gold chain (or more accurately, chain made of gold). The chain looks real enough, sure, but when the goldsmith melts it down, it disappears, leaving behind only the gold. So gold is said to be more real than the chain, or have a higher degree of reality than the chain, which is merely a construct, the name we give to a particular arrangement of gold. Similarly, paper is more real than the book, wood is more real than the furniture, etc.

    If we follow that reasoning further down the line, gold is just the name we give to a particular arrangement of protons, neutrons & electrons, which themselves are merely certain arrangements of quarks/mesons/bosons/whatever, which in turn are merely collapsed wave functions of quantum energy, and so on. And that’s if you think like a physicist. A biologist would go down a different path (body-tissue-cell maybe), but basically what all ‘seekers’ are looking for is the highest reality, or what is “most real”, beyond everything else. Words (like those in the YATU book) help to point the way, which I guess is the whole ‘point’!

    This post has received 1 vote up.
    • #6217 Score: 0

      Aurora Carlson
      Keymaster
      110 votes
      @aurorac

      Hi @sree , glad to see you on the forum and thanks for your explanation with the gold. I remember that Deepak has used that metaphor in Why Is God Laughing, have you read it? I loved it, it was great fun to read …
      I usually think of this issue in terms of the screen being more real than the movie projected on it, but of course, metaphors can only go so far. In the video Deepak says “the gap is not a construct” meaning that thoughts are constructs but the gap between them is not. I guess that summarizes his explanation. I wonder what @bernlern makes of it.

      Btw, I have thought about you lately Sree, let me know if I can help in any way to restore your video viewing experience 🙂
      Also, FYI, I can see the test post you made. Hoping you are having a great day!

  • #6216 Score: 0

    Sree
    Participant
    22 votes
    @sree

    testing testing

      testing 2 testing 2

  • #6229 Score: 1

    Sree
    Participant
    22 votes
    @sree

    Hi dear Aurora,
    Yes, I have read “God is Laughing”, but it’s been a while so I don’t recall the contents completely. Yes, metaphors are useful but only up to a point. And speaking of constructs, the word ‘consciousness’ is a construct, but it points to what enables constructs in the first place.

    PS. I made that test post to try out those little buttons above… didnt seem to work. Let’s try again here: bold? italics?,

      whatever ul means
    This post has received 1 vote up.
    • #6234 Score: 0

      Aurora Carlson
      Keymaster
      110 votes
      @aurorac

      Haha @sree , you have retained the insight being conveyed even if you don’t remember the rest of the book. That’s not bad, huh? 🙂

      PS. Glad you figured out italics and bold. I had to google Ul Ol and Li because I had forgotten what LI stands for. They are about making unordered and ordered lists. Here’s a link to an article describing styling lists with CSS on a platform such as ours, in case you’re curious.

      So let me test things out. Using UL one could make a list of

        one reason
        another reason
        still another reason to make an unordered list

      Using OL one could make another kind of list

        one reason
        another reason
        still another reason to make an ordered list

      As to LI, I doubt that anyone will go deeply into that. But who knows 🙂
      Seems the unordered and ordered lists look the same, probably one would have to define LI to get some bullet points, numbers, etc. Well… that’s about how far I got, if anyone can explain a simple way to get numbered or bullet point lists in our texts here I’m all ears and promise to make a tutorial for all members 🙂

  • #6242 Score: 0

    Menas Kafatos
    Moderator
    41 votes
    @menask

    Consciousness is the underlying reality. It is what makes humans ask this kind of question. Human construct in the sense of experiencing ourselves as conscious beings. Of course the word con-scious sort of indicates a duality, being aware of something else or somebody else. But in fact, it is Awareness itself which gives rise to what we call conscious phenomena (the qualities of experience).

    Best,

    Menas C. Kafatos

    • #6274 Score: 0

      JenniferL
      Participant
      89 votes
      @jenniferl

      Hello Everyone!

      It’s my understanding so far, we’re never meant to hold on to forms: people, places, things, ideas. This is true so far as I can see, even when what is coming through is a paradigm shifter, such as with the blessing of YATU. There is always the next step. But, have we taken the time to assimilate what we remember, so far?

      Whether the vessels are broken or whole, all forms will eventually break apart to allow what’s new to come through, in my experience so far. @bernlern Perhaps, you are sensing there is more to the story of the Self? <3

      When the world is so filled with forms and ideas, how do we know what to pay attention for?

      My understanding so far, it’s through our inner awareness that we recognize the truth when it comes to us. Some might argue that there is too much available, like sensory overload, to see it clearly. But, isn’t the path a series of letting go to see oneself more clearly?

      All of our struggles come back to a reference to the Self, as one of my spiritual teachers would say, “Within, within, within!” Go there.
      In the process of self-discovery, we attract our likeness. We know what book, what reference, what person, etc., because it aligns with one’s integrity at the level of intuition, and then becomes a reflection for further self-awareness. If we’re unconscious we go through boot camp. If we’re conscious, we’re truly blessed with understanding and can take the next step consciously.

      I get the sense sometimes that the spiritual path means to some denying ourselves of all the gifts of the world. It took me a while to remember that the world is of myself and the gifts are a reflection of my whole being. What am I intuitively in alignment with? How do I recognize this? How does this knowledge help me with knowing who I am?

      Namaste! @aurorac, @sree, @bernlern, and to the authors, it feels like old home-coming, when I come to this forum.
      Love,
      JenniferL

    • #6317 Score: 0

      Aurora Carlson
      Keymaster
      110 votes
      @aurorac

      Dear Jennifer, thank you for such a beautiful post, I loved reading your musings. I am so glad that we share this feeling of being at home on the forum, together. We can talk about things that are intimately true, knowing that there will be recognition.

      Your thoughts about what to pay attention to when forms are everywhere and there is sensory overload… as you wrote, at those moments we need to go within, we need silence. But this renunciation of experience is not a denial or refusal of the gifts life comes with. It is simply a way to go deeper, beyond experience. Not even the best gifts of the world (beautiful nature, friends, meaningful work, adventures, etc) are worth anything unless we know that which gives birth to them all. To use a word we all here know by now- consciousness itself.

      Knowing consciousness itself as the true Self, we can then delight in the creations of consciousness, and we can also create with full awareness. We won’t be creating a desperate world from despair or lack, but will be creating paradise from the sheer joy of becoming the world. As you say, the world we experience is a reflection of being.

      So it doesn’t surprise me that @sree is surrounded by lotus flowers 🙂 Dear Sree, I loved your picture! I understand your metaphor about being in the world but not of it, but… those water droplets on the lotus leaf are very much like hearts, wouldn’t you say? What do you think/see, @lilianna-deveneau ?

    • #6328 Score: 0

      JenniferL
      Participant
      89 votes
      @jenniferl

      Hello @aurorac,
      What a delight to wake up this morning and find your reply in my inbox! I hopped out of bed to get to my computer where I could respond. #whatidoforfunontheweekend. ;P

      What I love about this forum are the opportunities for deep reflection and sharing insights that resulted from that. I experience it as going deeply within to the jewel (reminded of Sri’s lotus flower) where all knowledge is given, discovering how we connect as souls now and then bringing through the needed words to say. I really hear words coming through! It’s a beautiful, intuitive process so far as I’ve experienced, and one I’ve been discovering and developing thanks, in part, to this forum, as I’ve had many opportunities to write since the forum’s inception. It’s a creative, collective (wouldn’t happen with you), holistic, going deep down into my socks, kind of experience, where I come out feeling completely in love with everyone!

      Deeply felt gratitude to you for your insights, to the authors for creating the book and forum for these discussions, and to all who come together!

      All comments welcome! <3
      Love,
      JenniferL

    • #6329 Score: 0

      JenniferL
      Participant
      89 votes
      @jenniferl

      Dear @aurorac and everyone,

      I just opened the Bhagavad Gita to the following passage (Bhagavad Gita 5:21):

      He is not bound by things without, and within he finds inner gladness. His soul is one in Brahman and he attains everlasting joy.

      I take this as confirmation of our discussion, as Aurora has written, “Knowing consciousness itself as the true Self, we can then delight in the creations of consciousness…” This is how I connect my spiritual reading with what’s happening in my circumstances for the affirmation/confirmation of higher awareness than what the physical worlds would have us believe about ourselves. This would be, to me, the thread of consciousness behind experience, so far as I can see so far, as it is synchronous.

      Hope you don’t mind me sharing a little bit of my spiritual practice, which I do daily as part of my meditation. For your enjoyment!

      Love,
      JenniferL

    • #6350 Score: 0

      Sree
      Participant
      22 votes
      @sree

      Speaking of connections, @jenniferl and @aurorac, yes, the heart shaped droplets in the center of leaves certainly caught my attention. Or should I say my attention sought them out :-). And it just struck me now that my full name itself has a special connection with the lotus – Sreedhar is one of the names for Lord Vishnu, but literally it means that which holds the Goddess Lakshmi – the lotus!

      Jennifer, interesting you should quote from the Gita. I myself remember a line in it (don’t recall exactly which one) that basically says that this knowledge (of Consciousness being the Source) makes all other knowledge as good as known.

  • #6254 Score: 1

    Menas Kafatos
    Moderator
    41 votes
    @menask

    Dear @sree:

    Yes, different names for different arrangements. All part of the “flow”, the third law of qualia science, how Consciousness projects the universe from “within”.

    Best,

    Menas

    This post has received 1 vote up.
  • #6269 Score: 0

    Sree
    Participant
    22 votes
    @sree

    picture

    Since we discussed metaphors earlier – here’s one that’s been useful to me. Many times a day, at work, I pass by a pool featuring dozens of the loveliest lotus flowers ever. It’s striking to see this beautiful symmetry right next to pond scum, and (to me) serves as a reminder that beauty & ugliness are both in the eye of the beholder, and are both merely constructs in consciousness. Also, the water droplet on the lotus leaf is a reminder – to be “in the world but not of it”.

    • #6327 Score: 0

      JenniferL
      Participant
      89 votes
      @jenniferl

      Hello, @sri !

      Thank you for posting the beautiful photo of the lotus flower. I enjoy your insights about beauty and ugliness being in the eyes of the beholder. I’m reminded of a meditation group I belonged to many years ago where we were reminded that, while we give something aesthetic value for its beauty or ugliness, it’s all part of the beauty of creation from the same source. God is. It’s a nice reminder with your words, too. And, reminds me of Dr. Chopra reminding us to look as if for the first time.

      @aurorac – heart shapes, such as the water droplet on the lotus leaf, have been a theme for me, too. I remember you writing about this in another thread (correct me if I’m wrong), though I didn’t post there (I don’t think?), I was lurking.;P I also like to pay attention to occurrences like these. The heart shape reminds me of joy and collective consciousness – we are not alone to do the spiritual work. Our coming together on the forum is proof! <3 Even though, we are “in the world and not of it.”

      Love,
      JenniferL

  • #6331 Score: 2

    Sree
    Participant
    22 votes
    @sree

    Such a delightful exchange this is, @jenniferl and @aurorac ! And now that i have two more lotus-lovers, let me give you two more glimpses of my world.
    lotus-pic2
    lotus-pic3

    This post has received 2 votes up.
    • #6361 Score: 0

      Aurora Carlson
      Keymaster
      110 votes
      @aurorac

      So beautiful Sree! 🙂 Thank you so much for filling my universe with lotus flowers! Who knows, they might start appearing in my pond too! 🙂

      pond

      Dear @jenniferl , I’m glad that you were lurking on the thread where Robin and I were talking heart synchronicities. I think it is a symbol that many use to awaken themselves to real reality. But any other symbol works just as well, for what we focus on, we manifest. So I wish you and everyone a day of conscious focus and delightful experience!

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